Jim Farley Teases Mustang GT3 Roaring at Sebring - "Should We Make a Road Version?"

[Hack]

Just having a 5.4 engine would be a small step in the right direction. IMO the S650 Mustang GT should have gotten a 5.4. The 5.0 is tired (has been for years). GM and Dodge build decent sized engines, I'm not sure why Ford can't. Really they should be building 6+ liters by now, but after more than 10 years they still drag out the old 5.0.

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[guzie]

Just having a 5.4 engine would be a small step in the right direction. IMO the S650 Mustang GT should have gotten a 5.4. The 5.0 is tired (has been for years). GM and Dodge build decent sized engines, I'm not sure why Ford can't. Really they should be building 6+ liters by now, but after more than 10 years they still drag out the old 5.0.

Well it’s not the “old 5.0”. That 5.0 kicks the 6+ liter GM butt. It’s a whole different platform with its modular design. The GM setup is still just the old pushrod V8. Ford is building them all as overhead cam and basically what dodge calls a “hemi” in regards to where the spark is introduced straight down on top in the middle of the 4 valves per cylinder. It’s design is great and allows for 12:1 compression engines that run great on 93 octane and can even handle 87 octane (for those cheap bastards) with retarding the timing for a drop in some power. The old pushrod v8 just try stuffing it with 12:1 compression and having it be streetable on as low as 87 octane. the overhead cam architecture is wider and a 5.0 is as wide as an old boss 429 engine. It’s a size constraint to push it into the 6 liter size and still package well in the vehicle. It has proven it doesn’t need to push that volume in that it makes great power with just the 5.0, 5.2, 5.4 configs it’s being stretched to.

 

[Hack]

Well it’s not the “old 5.0”. That 5.0 kicks the 6+ liter GM butt. It’s a whole different platform with its modular design. The GM setup is still just the old pushrod V8. Ford is building them all as overhead cam and basically what dodge calls a “hemi” in regards to where the spark is introduced straight down on top in the middle of the 4 valves per cylinder. It’s design is great and allows for 12:1 compression engines that run great on 93 octane and can even handle 87 octane (for those cheap bastards) with retarding the timing for a drop in some power. The old pushrod v8 just try stuffing it with 12:1 compression and having it be streetable on as low as 87 octane. the overhead cam architecture is wider and a 5.0 is as wide as an old boss 429 engine. It’s a size constraint to push it into the 6 liter size and still package well in the vehicle. It has proven it doesn’t need to push that volume in that it makes great power with just the 5.0, 5.2, 5.4 configs it’s being stretched to.

If you are happy with Ford adding 20 HP on a car that costs so much, sure go ahead and pick one up. I'm underwhelmed by these 20 hp changes in a small CI engine when it would be easy to add 75-150 HP by just increasing the engine size a little.

It doesn't take much of a size change to increase displacement. Coyote bore and stroke are 3.63 and 3.65 inches, I believe. GM 6.0 LS bore and stroke 4 x 3.62. So going to a 4 inch bore is a 0.37 inch change X 4 bores per bank = 1.48 inches. Definitely a 6 liter Coyote could fit in the existing engine compartment only adding 1.48 inches to the length of the engine. Yes a larger bore would make the engine slightly wider, but only by less than 0.185 inches per side.

A 6 liter Coyote would be a nice improvement over the old, tired 5.0.

 

[agreywolfe]

i can only assume they decided to stick with the 5.0 because the mixture of efficiency standards and the looming hybridization/electrification of the entire industry probably just made it not worth it to redesign the entire engine compartment to fit the, admittedly small difference, larger engine.

 

[Darkness24]

HELL YEAH PEEPS!

 

[DeluxeStang]

Just having a 5.4 engine would be a small step in the right direction. IMO the S650 Mustang GT should have gotten a 5.4. The 5.0 is tired (has been for years). GM and Dodge build decent sized engines, I'm not sure why Ford can't. Really they should be building 6+ liters by now, but after more than 10 years they still drag out the old 5.0.

But why? What do the 6.2 and 6.4 achieve that the 5.0 doesn't? I see more 5.0s being modded, and making higher power outputs, implying it's more tuner friendly. Quadruple digit 5.0 builds are common place in car culture, I don't think I've ever seen a 6.4 with that kind of power output, and only a few 6.2s hovering near there. Most sources imply the 5.0 is at least as reliable, if not more reliable than both of those engines. It revs higher, it responds quicker, it sounds better imo.

The 5.4 will be a great engine in a future performance variant. But putting it in the gt would have massively increased the price. I saw you saying they could get 150 extra hp out of it. But at that point, they would almost certainly have to make all gt's come with the beefier tremec. Which would increase the price by several thousand on its own.

Thrown in the fact that they would have to also offer better brakes and tires to handle the additional power, and additional suspension improvements. I highly doubt a base gt would have been below 50 grand by that point.

 

[agreywolfe]

yeah the 5.0 is a very solid engine for what Ford wants from it, its a decent V8 making plenty of power while keeping costs as low as possible. Its got countless upgrades to make it put out as much or more power than a hellcat without spending too much comparatively.

as for the 5.4 and the GT3 road spec mustang, if Ford were to make one you can almost guarantee the Tremec and 10R80 get the boot in favor of the DCT out of the 500 (or out of the actual Mustang GT3).

 

[OppoLock]

i can only assume they decided to stick with the 5.0 because the mixture of efficiency standards and the looming hybridization/electrification of the entire industry probably just made it not worth it to redesign the entire engine compartment to fit the, admittedly small difference, larger engine.

this is why every engine has stagnated in size or downsized in the past decade

find a german OEM that has NOT downsized their performance engine sizes in the last 15 years barring their very-most limited volume halo models. I source them specifically because they used to be the home of mega-displacement high revving monsters

it’s one thing to pretend to understand the “simplicity” of introducing bigger and more powerful engines to sell in high volume, it’s another to understand the realities behind the scene

i’m don’t think we need to question the lifelong career engineers at ford and their understanding of the elementary-as-fuck basics of bore, stroke, displacement, etc.

if it’s “easy,” it would’ve been done years ago

 

[Osage]

Squad--you throw a Whipple over the top of the 5.0 and you have more power than you could ever possibly need in a street car. The DH version with forged internals should be safe to add another 150HP. That is ludicrous power.

 

[Hack]

The Porsche Cayman's engine size has continued to increase in displacement and HP recently. Yes they aren't large engines, but it's fine because the car itself is small and light. It's nice that Porsche is dropping the larger engines into that car.

And Dodge hasn't increased the sizes of their engines recently, but they have installed larger blowers.

What size is the engine in the Ferrari 812 Superfast? 6.5 liters is a good size for an NA engine when you can make about 800 hp with it.

 

[RocketGuy3]

If you are happy with Ford adding 20 HP on a car that costs so much, sure go ahead and pick one up. I'm underwhelmed by these 20 hp changes in a small CI engine when it would be easy to add 75-150 HP by just increasing the engine size a little.

It doesn't take much of a size change to increase displacement. Coyote bore and stroke are 3.63 and 3.65 inches, I believe. GM 6.0 LS bore and stroke 4 x 3.62. So going to a 4 inch bore is a 0.37 inch change X 4 bores per bank = 1.48 inches. Definitely a 6 liter Coyote could fit in the existing engine compartment only adding 1.48 inches to the length of the engine. Yes a larger bore would make the engine slightly wider, but only by less than 0.185 inches per side.

A 6 liter Coyote would be a nice improvement over the old, tired 5.0.

It's in our blood as car people to want more and more every generation. Never such a thing as enough power, but you have to be reasonable... Did you really think the arms race in American Muscle power was going to continue forever, especially with the same old tech cars have essentially been using for a century? I mean look at the competition. performance cars all over the world (but especially American V8s) have slowly been getting killed off for years, and those that remain are seeing increasingly moderate gains in power and performance, and for obvious reasons.

It's impossible to make an even moderately efficient and clean car for the masses that puts out over 500 hp on dino bones.

Plus, as others have pointed out, if you really NEED more power, that's what the aftermarket is for (though I guess we'll see how much Ford has really locked this engine down).

The Porsche Cayman's engine size has continued to increase in displacement and HP recently. Yes they aren't large engines, but it's fine because the car itself is small and light. It's nice that Porsche is dropping the larger engines into that car.

And Dodge hasn't increased the sizes of their engines recently, but they have installed larger blowers.

What size is the engine in the Ferrari 812 Superfast? 6.5 liters is a good size for an NA engine when you can make about 800 hp with it.

In the top trim Caymans, sure, engine size has gone from 3.8L to 4.0L... But not on the lower trim models. And even on the top performance engines, it's the same block just bored out. And that engine is about to be replaced by an electric motor next gen.

 

[agreywolfe]

Dodge effectively proved that the horsepower wars are over. Just look at the new horsepower king the Demon 170, sure its got 1024 horsepower (on 170 proof E85 if you were wondering where the 170 came from) and is unquestionably a monster of a car, its also barely street legal and most of the time wont make the advertised 1024 (91 pump drops power to 900 which it will still barely ever touch on the roads legally) and effectively banned from any place where it even COULD use all of that power (unless you modify it to add a roll cage and get a parachute). Horsepower isnt why im excited for the Mustang GT3 though, its all the rest of it.

 

[DeluxeStang]

Dodge effectively proved that the horsepower wars are over. Just look at the new horsepower king the Demon 170, sure its got 1024 horsepower (on 170 proof E85 if you were wondering where the 170 came from) and is unquestionably a monster of a car, its also barely street legal and most of the time wont make the advertised 1024 (91 pump drops power to 900 which it will still barely ever touch on the roads legally) and effectively banned from any place where it even COULD use all of that power (unless you modify it to add a roll cage and get a parachute). Horsepower isnt why im excited for the Mustang GT3 though, its all the rest of it.

Exactly, the high performance mustangs are far more balanced. The challengers are just "Let's throw more power at it".

 

[Hi-PO Stang]

I wonder if Farley already has plans in motion to produce a street legal GT3 Mustang.

 

[Hack]

It's in our blood as car people to want more and more every generation. Never such a thing as enough power, but you have to be reasonable... Did you really think the arms race in American Muscle power was going to continue forever, especially with the same old tech cars have essentially been using for a century? I mean look at the competition. performance cars all over the world (but especially American V8s) have slowly been getting killed off for years, and those that remain are seeing increasingly moderate gains in power and performance, and for obvious reasons.

It's impossible to make an even moderately efficient and clean car for the masses that puts out over 500 hp on dino bones.

The Coyote 5.0 came out in 2011. 12 years is a good long time to keep the same engine with only smaller tweaks. It's not like Ford just came out with a new, bigger engine 3 or 4 years ago. It's been a long long time.

If you want an efficient and clean car, the Mustang should not be for you. Why do you think an enthusiast would want that? It seems crazy to even say it. If you want a Corolla or a Prius, you are welcome to it. Sounds like torture to me.

Plus, as others have pointed out, if you really NEED more power, that's what the aftermarket is for (though I guess we'll see how much Ford has really locked this engine down).

Right. If power is my goal, I can do it with my current vehicle which also has a Coyote in it. And an ECU that's easy to tune. No reason to spoil the warranty on a brand new vehicle by modifying it right away or worry whether it will be possible/legal.

In the top trim Caymans, sure, engine size has gone from 3.8L to 4.0L... But not on the lower trim models. And even on the top performance engines, it's the same block just bored out. And that engine is about to be replaced by an electric motor next gen.

I think Porsche is going with some kind of artificial fuel for their top tier vehicles. And I like Porsches, but I'd buy another old Porsche before I'd consider something with an electric motor in it.

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