SO, is the S650 PCM locked or not?

[KINGKONA]

Some things to consider with respect to jailbreaking a PCM (I do understand to some I'm stating the obvious.)

Voiding warranties are a given. More importantly is the issue of safety.

Anyone who has a jail-breaked car and later has an accident could be in for all kinds of problems.

Yeah, because that's been an issue for the last few decades.

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[awpe]

Yes but my point is that if a device CAN be rewritten it means there is a key as a handshake has to happen. It just depends on HOW they implement that handshake, and if anyone trying to crack it can repeat the shake over and over while they work on cracking it. I'd be amazed if there is anyone really in the tuning market that has the money and know how to spend time trying to crack it though. Thats really the issue. If someone could sit watching the handshake over and over trying to capture the data, I'm sure they would get a crack for it, but like I said... no one has the time, know how AND money while also caring enough to do it. It's almost more a security by obscurity.

Remember Dodge PCM's are also locked and while it took a couple years, they are cracked.

Handshaking or making ecu accept firmware is one thing, and having completely encrypted firmware with keys stored in "safe" place is another one and second option is unfortunately unsolvable within current public science domain. All your browser data is encrypted and anyone can listen it all day long yet all breaches are related to lost passwords or differently compromised secret data, having keys in a place that has no internet connection will make tuners/hackers face common problems with encryption that are not yet solved (well, there are rumors but no known available solutions). I've been in a corporate business where such solutions with isolated "build" environments were required and always had a question if some centipercents of economy on hardware worth leaving holes in ECU access approach.

 

[Cory S]

What's it matter? Nobody is going to see these things delivered for 16-20 months. Go lay down.

 

[Biggus Dickus]

The PRICE of a C8 is likely a much larger hinderance to cracking it than it's actual encryption.

Some guy named Reuss would beg to differ.

Cost of C7s was not a hindrance to tuning (except the ZR1/LT5 which came with highly encrypted softward ) and beyond that aftermarket tuning for the LT1 and LT4 was, and is, robust. When the LT2 hit...nothing. There is no shortage of C8 owners that would love to squeeze out a few more horses or get an E85 tune.

Indeed: " Muscle Cars & Trucks reported a few days ago on the advanced encryption written into the ECU in the 2020 Chevrolet Corvette. The condensed version is that, according to the outlet's source, "successfully flash-tuning, reprogramming and otherwise altering the engine control unit to increase power output will be next to impossible." During the reveal event for the Cadillac CT4-V and CT5-V, MCT asked GM President Mark Reuss about the Corvette's new Global B electrical architecture, which is shared with the new Cadillacs, and about that ECU." (my emphasis)

Source: https://www.autoblog.com/2019/06/04/c8-corvette-encrypted-ecu-mark-reuss/

See also: https://www.corvetteforum.com/articles/gm-aims-prevent-c8-corvette-tuning/

There is one company that claimed to hack the C8 ECU, but then stated that no gains could be achieved.

What Ford does with the S650 ECU remains to be seen. I'd like an E85 DH. I hope it will be easy as it was for my S550.

 

[Schwerin]

Some guy named Reuss would beg to differ.

Cost of C7s was not a hindrance to tuning (except the ZR1/LT5 which came with highly encrypted softward ) and beyond that aftermarket tuning for the LT1 and LT4 was, and is, robust. When the LT2 hit...nothing. There is no shortage of C8 owners that would love to squeeze out a few more horses or get an E85 tune.

Indeed: " Muscle Cars & Trucks reported a few days ago on the advanced encryption written into the ECU in the 2020 Chevrolet Corvette. The condensed version is that, according to the outlet's source, "successfully flash-tuning, reprogramming and otherwise altering the engine control unit to increase power output will be next to impossible." During the reveal event for the Cadillac CT4-V and CT5-V, MCT asked GM President Mark Reuss about the Corvette's new Global B electrical architecture, which is shared with the new Cadillacs, and about that ECU." (my emphasis)

Source: https://www.autoblog.com/2019/06/04/c8-corvette-encrypted-ecu-mark-reuss/

See also: https://www.corvetteforum.com/articles/gm-aims-prevent-c8-corvette-tuning/

There is one company that claimed to hack the C8 ECU, but then stated that no gains could be achieved.

What Ford does with the S650 ECU remains to be seen. I'd like an E85 DH. I hope it will be easy as it was for my S550.

Bolded the part you clearly kipped over.

 

[AvalancheSVT]

And is it a big deal to anyone else?

OK, I like the new car just fine. But then again I love my two S550s as well and I don’t see anything about the S650 that makes me want to run out to the garage and light my new 500 mile GT on fire. At a glance, especially to a non-enthusiast the new car looks just like the 18-23 so if you like those you’ll like the new one too.

But I am interested in the mechanical details, and for some reason whether or not the PCM is locked has become a bit of a big deal for me. The 450-460 hp of my S550s may be all I ever need or want but somehow it gives me peace of mind knowing I can get a second helping if I want one. I don’t know, sometimes I think I just hate being told what to do and what not to do.

What say you?

every lock has a key. therefore, every lock can be picked.
they always say this and we always find a way around it.

now that we're all above 460hp I have no need for more.

 

[K4fxd]

HPtuners supports the ZR1/LT5

 

[young at heart]

every lock has a key. therefore, every lock can be picked.
they always say this and we always find a way around it.

now that we're all above 460hp I have no need for more.

Yeah, if you aren’t tracking or involved in some other special activity this is pretty much the reality of things. I‘m blessed to live in an area where it’s pretty easy to find some lonely 2 lane roads but when I do a WOT pull I’m yet to get very deep into 4th gear after the 7400 rpm 3-4 upshift. I’m embarrassed to admit I don’t really know exactly how fast that is but it feels pretty darn fast given the 6MT and 3.55s. Truth is I’m a little too busy to pay a lot of attention to the speedo but like I say she’s really reeling in the pavement by then.

 

[AvalancheSVT]

Yeah, if you aren’t tracking or involved in some other special activity this is pretty much the reality of things. I‘m blessed to live in an area where it’s pretty easy to find some lonely 2 lane roads but when I do a WOT pull I’m yet to get very deep into 4th gear after the 7400 rpm 3-4 upshift. I’m embarrassed to admit I don’t really know exactly how fast that is but it feels pretty darn fast given the 6MT and 3.55s. Truth is I’m a little too busy to pay a lot of attention to the speedo but like I say she’s really reeling in the pavement by then.

the only performance metric that matters is the smile on your face and joy in your heart, dude.

 

[young at heart]

the only performance metric that matters is the smile on your face and joy in your heart, dude.

You sure said that right man. Well put! I do love my A10 convertible but I had forgotten how much fun it is to row your own. This car is just pure joy! With the windows down in track mode sometimes I get lost in myself and have to think a little about where I’ve wound up.

 

[Gnatsum21]

...
now that we're all above 460hp I have no need for more.

For me its never enough.

 

[airjonny]

By the time I get one and ever get tired of nearly 500hp, someone will have cracked it or Ford Performance will have a tune that I can get from the dealer.

 

[Cauf E. Bean]

Aftermarket or not, you know if that PCM is somehow “cracked, hacked or unlocked” via Forscan or other means - Ford WILL have a way of knowing via software code and WILL most likely void any warranty work. That’s the intent going forward, to lock consumers out of manipulating/changing parameters so that the vehicle is still “EPA” compliant….

Yes there’s always a way to hack any PCM at some point, that’s a given - but you can bet Ford Engineers already have something in place in the event someone tries to circumvent the “lock” and Service Centers will be able to determine IF that has occurred….

I bought my S650 Mustang knowing that the warranty was going in the garbage. I paid cash and have zero interest in staying inside Ford's predefined box. I've already voided the warranty with the cat delete. I'm waiting on someone to crack the software and then I'm going full twin turbos, nitrous, and zero f's given.
If someone out there needs an S650 to use for decompiling, code injection, or EPM module piggy backing, I'm ready and have no fears over doing anything and everything to get around this BS walled garden.

 

[Cauf E. Bean]

Handshaking or making ecu accept firmware is one thing, and having completely encrypted firmware with keys stored in "safe" place is another one and second option is unfortunately unsolvable within current public science domain. All your browser data is encrypted and anyone can listen it all day long yet all breaches are related to lost passwords or differently compromised secret data, having keys in a place that has no internet connection will make tuners/hackers face common problems with encryption that are not yet solved (well, there are rumors but no known available solutions). I've been in a corporate business where such solutions with isolated "build" environments were required and always had a question if some centipercents of economy on hardware worth leaving holes in ECU access approach.

There is a lot of misrepresentation in your comment. TLS 1.0, 1.1, and 1.2 all ended up with exploited security flaws, with the 1.0 & 1.1 falling to BEAST and POODLE attacks, and the 1.3 having a vulnerability to Racoon (I don't make these things up!)
Maybe a little future thinking, but quantum computing will make these locks completely negligible.
As part of my work, we frequently attack banks public portals to demonstrate to them their vulnerabilities - and there are so freaking many! To the point where we often have to stop the test to prevent bringing their networks. Security is by definition vulnerable.

 

[Cauf E. Bean]

And is it a big deal to anyone else?

OK, I like the new car just fine. But then again I love my two S550s as well and I don’t see anything about the S650 that makes me want to run out to the garage and light my new 500 mile GT on fire. At a glance, especially to a non-enthusiast the new car looks just like the 18-23 so if you like those you’ll like the new one too.

But I am interested in the mechanical details, and for some reason whether or not the PCM is locked has become a bit of a big deal for me. The 450-460 hp of my S550s may be all I ever need or want but somehow it gives me peace of mind knowing I can get a second helping if I want one. I don’t know, sometimes I think I just hate being told what to do and what not to do.

What say you?

One other thing that I've been looking into - the S650 shares a lot of the same architecture and components from the S550. I'm curious if removing the 650 computer and replacing with a 550 module would be a viable solution with a known vector for mods.

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