Chief Engineer of S650 Mustang talks Coyote, EcoBoost, Dark Horse Upgrades

[spectremotorsports]

I keep reading people comparing all the different Mustangs they've been doing and this should have been that and what not. I almost wouldn't be surprised if they did something with this last stretch of ICE cars and doing another Bullitt/Mach 1/Boss all at the same time.

Here is your last table of these cars. Pick the one you want cause they won't be coming back with anything that isn't electric to push the car down the road.

Hopefully I'm wrong though

If I remember correctly, they have definitively said that the V8 will still be here for the following generation.

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[Stonehauler]

I'm not sure why you think the s650 version of the GT would have the exact same power as it's predecessor AND be slower in the 0-60. We already have 480 and 4.2 0-60...

The M340i is a great car but that's also apples and oranges. A lux-performance saloon vs a muscle car isn't really an apt comparison.

except, that is one of the cars Ford is putting itself up against. The whole point of the S550 was to go more upscale in the market. At this point, you either do, or you don't, and part of that should be better numbers for a similar or higher price.

 

[spectremotorsports]

except, that is one of the cars Ford is putting itself up against. The whole point of the S550 was to go more upscale in the market. At this point, you either do, or you don't, and part of that should be better numbers for a similar or higher price.

"go upmarket" and comparing something to a completely different type of car are two different things.

This would be my 5th mustang after a '91, '04, '07, and '17 and there is zero way anyone can say that the interior build quality and materials haven't moved significantly upmarket from where they were in prior generations.

 

[Dub347sbf]

Has anyone heard if the Dark Horse automatic will have auto start/stop? Does the Mach 1 Handling Pack have it?

 

[because_murica]

Has anyone heard if the Dark Horse automatic will have auto start/stop? Does the Mach 1 Handling Pack have it?

It will probably have it, yes.

 

[Mustang406]

Has anyone heard if the Dark Horse automatic will have auto start/stop? Does the Mach 1 Handling Pack have it?

My Mach1 does not have auto stop/start.

 

[Dub347sbf]

My Mach1 does not have auto stop/start.

Is it an Auto? If so that is awesome.

 

[Mustang406]

Is it an Auto? If so that is awesome.

Yes I got the auto in mine.

 

[Hack]

I think that shortly after the MachE(1) was announced there was going to be a BOSS announcement. With the poor reception they decided to extend the GT350 life and figured it would be easy to use what was already developed for the new Bullitt and PPL2. Let's face it the Bullitt tweaks are great but NO what's expected of a Mach1 or Boss. I believe originally there was no plan for a PPL2 or Bullitt.

If the Mach1(e) had been fine the BOSS would be a 2019 car, GT350 ending in '17 or '18 with the PPL2+BULLITT being its specs, maybe with a tremec and the Mach1 grill we got. And with no actual PPL2 or Bullitt people would accept it just fine, maybe think its a LITTLE under powered for a BOSS. The Bullitt probably would have been just then intake/TB/tune that Ford Performance sells as that historically that's all its been.

With the Mach1(e) pushed back the GT350 got extended, what was on hand inventory for the Boss already became the PPL2 and the engine turned into the BULLITT, maybe with a LITTLE bit milder tune than a BOSS would have gotten. Semi explains why the 2018 PPL2 was supposed to be limited to under 1500 cars. Later when Ford figure out WTF to do about a promised Mach1 they just put the BOSS BACK together, with tweaks to make it a bit more aggressive than the PPL2, and with DIff cooling its biggest feedback issue the GT350 coolers.

But it still makes me wonder why if a BOSS, or even Mach1, car was planned they didn't do more for then power. I'm kind of surprised they didn't plan to give it a more aggressive cam and/or a higher redline. This would be a LITTLE excusable if there was no PPL2/Bullitt to compare it to as it would have the +20HP, likely a little bit more aggressive tuning to be more like a 485-490, and the added tremec gearing. Together against a PPL1 GT it would have had a very clear advantage like the resulting Mach1 does against a PPL1. As it sits, coolers/gearing aside I don't see reason to get a base 2021 Mach1 over a 2020 PPL2 + Power Pack, or Bullitt with the FP handling kit. You save THOUSANDS in comparison.

The problem is anyone that can tell what happened behind closed door STILL works at Ford and are under NDA's. So, we'll likely never know like the mystery of the N/A 2003 Cobra motor that didn't meet expectations so they went SC and if that engine was really the tweaks that went to the 2003 Mach1 or not. Or the SVT Escort ZX2 engine that turned into the 212 HP turbo Focus RS engine. Ford had a good shot at being the first US maker to have a turbo 4 with 200+ HP in the Fast and Furious turner hype hitting in the late 90's with the SRT4 and Cobalt SS, but canceled it and sent the engine over seas. It was a few horses less than its competition, but ZX2 also weighed 100-200lbs less and had a more aggressive gearing ratio in it. The ZX2 often ran with cars with 15-30hp more than it due to that.

Ford seems to have a history of hindering the Mach1 to make SVT/FP products look better, and then its smaller cars to make Mustang look better.

Interesting speculation. I think the GT350 was extended because it won almost every award available. It was wildly successful and popular beyond anything they probably expected. It was so amazing that it took until winter 2019 - a full 4 years after initial release - before you could find one in a dealership at MSRP or below. And now the used prices are really high for them after only a few years.

Just some general thoughts on the thread and some people's posts below.
Regarding Dark Horse as a name: I think in the context of everything going small engine turbo/hybrid/AWD/auto shutoff/EV/SUV/CUV - Mustang is a dark horse because you can still get it as a basic sporty vehicle and it isn't watered down too much, gooped up with excessive complexity or completely ruined by regulations yet.

I post some negative stuff on here about how Mustang is too big and heavy, the engine is too small, costs too much, etc. but I have to admit I'm pleasantly surprised that Ford is still building an NA V8 sports car without a lot of extra BS added on.

 

[roket]

Has anyone heard if the Dark Horse automatic will have auto start/stop? Does the Mach 1 Handling Pack have it?

based on concept pictures and the GT interior, it probably will, the manual might too
Mach 1 HP doens't have it, though

 

[Schwerin]

Interesting speculation. I think the GT350 was extended because it won almost every award available. It was wildly successful and popular beyond anything they probably expected. It was so amazing that it took until winter 2019 - a full 4 years after initial release - before you could find one in a dealership at MSRP or below. And now the used prices are really high for them after only a few years.

Just some general thoughts on the thread and some people's posts below.
Regarding Dark Horse as a name: I think in the context of everything going small engine turbo/hybrid/AWD/auto shutoff/EV/SUV/CUV - Mustang is a dark horse because you can still get it as a basic sporty vehicle and it isn't watered down too much, gooped up with excessive complexity or completely ruined by regulations yet.

I post some negative stuff on here about how Mustang is too big and heavy, the engine is too small, costs too much, etc. but I have to admit I'm pleasantly surprised that Ford is still building an NA V8 sports car without a lot of extra BS added on.

Used prices on EVERYTHING are high, Hell used prices on damn Honda Civics are high. A 2003 Mach1 is going for original MSRP right now. It has nothing to do with it being a GT350. Thats the whole market.

You could also find GT350's sitting on lots in 2018 in my area. Many dealers had 3-4 sitting on lots. Part of what kept those markups going was the constant speculation that it was going to be the Final year as rumors were all over that 17 was the last year, then 18 then 19.... I'd more easily believe it was just continued to help it recover all the costs involved in developing making the FCP, CF wheels and Magneride than just "it sold well". The GT350 had probably more "new" tech not shared with any other Mustang(untill 2018) probably ever, that cost a LOT of R&D. The GT500's always sell well and they don't get extended years. The BOSS sold very well and it didn't get kept for 2014.

 

[Hack]

Used prices on EVERYTHING are high, Hell used prices on damn Honda Civics are high. A 2003 Mach1 is going for original MSRP right now. It has nothing to do with it being a GT350. Thats the whole market.

You could also find GT350's sitting on lots in 2018 in my area. Many dealers had 3-4 sitting on lots. Part of what kept those markups going was the constant speculation that it was going to be the Final year as rumors were all over that 17 was the last year, then 18 then 19.... I'd more easily believe it was just continued to help it recover all the costs involved in developing making the FCP, CF wheels and Magneride than just "it sold well". The GT350 had probably more "new" tech not shared with any other Mustang(untill 2018) probably ever, that cost a LOT of R&D. The GT500's always sell well and they don't get extended years. The BOSS sold very well and it didn't get kept for 2014.

You can dis the GT350 if you want. That's fine. Doesn't bother me, and I'm sure all the reviewers that said it was the best don't care what you say either. I have driven a lot of miles in a GT350 and I understand exactly how it compares.

 

[Schwerin]

You can dis the GT350 if you want. That's fine. Doesn't bother me, and I'm sure all the reviewers that said it was the best don't care what you say either. I have driven a lot of miles in a GT350 and I understand exactly how it compares.

That literally has nothing to do with anything I said.

 

[btown93]

Boss was always going to be a 2 year run, in keeping with tradition of 69/70 with 302 cid, manual, live axle.
The idea of “Dark Horse” doesn’t seem too complicated to me. It’s an effort to create a new package for the next generation buyer. Boss/Mach/Shelby are all names from the classic mustang era. If you look at the new Bronco, there are multiple trim names, and with that it’s almost choose your own adventure. Adding names to these add a sense of value, or specialness, real or imagined. Bronco is an old nameplate, yet it feels fresh. Badlands, Sasquatch, Everglades, etc. Look at how it’s worked with other vehicles. When you hear Hellcat, Redeye, ZL1, Raptor, Bronco Raptor, it’s different than if you hear challenger, charger, Camaro. Even on this forum, people aren’t saying “mustang dark horse” they are saying Dark Horse or DH. Just look at the car, it arguably looks more sinister than any S550 variant to date. It will be interesting to see how it compares in the real world.

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