S650 mule spotted..........with all wheel drive?

[Mikthehun1]

I hope not, but seems to be leaning that way. Mustang numbers grew mostly on the strength of going international, but went down domestically.

All the anti-ICE legislation is not helping, something I say as young guy who leans center-left and feels at odds with this eagerness to ban ICEs, creating a domino effect.

I think that Ford FCA and GM need to lobby for exemptions on performance vehicles. I can understand commuter vehicles, family sedans and crossovers being forced to adapt, but lower volume sports cars and performance vehicles being excused, the way that large trucks are.

Problem is, Mustang powertrains are shared and not bespoke. The need to go EV with Generation 8 feels premature.

Want to hear another one of my conspiracy theories?

Too bad if you don't, this is the internet!

Ford is putting out both the supercharged Raptor R AND the EV Lightning variant of the F150. I'd bet money that the ICE lives on as a limited run option. Unfortunately, that would mean steep ADM as well...

Or, more hopefully, the increasing electrification of vehicles will help keep the fleetwide averages high enough to allow a few more years of GT models to sneak in. In effect, the Mach-E could save the Mustang as we know and love it. It's still a garbage Karen-mobile though

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[amk91]

Want to hear another one of my conspiracy theories?

Too bad if you don't, this is the internet!

Ford is putting out both the supercharged Raptor R AND the EV Lightning variant of the F150. I'd bet money that the ICE lives on as a limited run option. Unfortunately, that would mean steep ADM as well...

Or, more hopefully, the increasing electrification of vehicles will help keep the fleetwide averages high enough to allow a few more years of GT models to sneak in. In effect, the Mach-E could save the Mustang as we know and love it. It's still a garbage Karen-mobile though

Sounds about right within 10 years.

 

[Ace]

On the London Mach-E Reveal event I was invited to last year I talked a bit with Darren Palmer, he is pretty much one of the persons in lead of their electric vehicles. I asked him if he sees a longterm future for the V8 and he was pretty clear: He thinks the V8 might shift away from being the engine for the base models, but could stay for special performance cars like Shelby models. Of course this is just his personal opinion and nothing official, but I think it is pretty plausible

 

[Stonehauler]

It will depend on battery tech IMO. If they can get long range (400+ mile) and short charge (5-10 minutes for 80 percent, 20 for full), then electric vehicles will end up ruling. They have better performance, the ability to recapture much of the energy wasted during breaking, and lower center of gravities for improved handling. Motor tech is still improving meaning more HP in smaller packages, giving room to give passengers/cargo more room while keeping to the same size vehicle, or shrinking the size to give even better economy.

Solid State batteries and even better designs may be just around the corner and if they offer the performance implied, it will be like comparing a flathead motor to the Mustang GT350's engine.

 

[shogun32]

If they can get long range (400+ mile) and short charge (5-10 minutes for 80 percent, 20 for full),

won't happen any time soon. Do you have any idea how many KJ that is? I'm surprised the manufactures haven't paired 7-14KwA worth of SuperCap for 'minute' charging speeds and a traditional batt range of 150-200mi. Chasing 'range' is hindering EV adoption and making cars incredibly heavy. It's a STUPID use case and criteria when industry telemetry shows that's not how the vast majority of vehicles are used, even ICE.

The goal should be 30-50 mile range in 10 minutes of charge for burst charging when level is below 30% and then revert to slow for filling up the rest of the 'tank'.

 

[Stonehauler]

When I was commuting on a regular basis, my commute was 180 miles a day (I have worked from home for the past 12 years). Most years, we go and visit family, which is 800+ miles away and my wife and I do it in a single one day drive (in the future, this might be a 1200 mile one way trip). With the number of passengers in the car, this is the most cost efficient method of travel, and usually ends up being a 2000 mile road trip. Since my Sister in law lives 100 miles from my mother (where we stay when we are there), visiting her would become almost impossible with the electric car you describe (we try and visit her 4-5 times during the 2 week period we are out there). When I went to college, a trip home was about 200 miles...and it was an in-state university. My dojo is a 100 mile round trip. There is simply no closer dojo for my art. Heck, it's 15 miles to the nearest hardware store or grocery store one way. Since my wife's job is here and she has needed to commute every day, it does not make sense for us to move.

When you add that winter-time can be brutal for for battery charge level, I would expect a significant cut in any range for much of the time I would need the longest range.

Simply put, if electric only cars don't have good range and good recharge speeds, ICE will continue to rule. I can add 400 miles to my vehicle in about 10 minutes with an ICE, 16 if the pump is extremely slow and the tanks nearly empty. If you want widespread adoption of electric cars, they need to be able to get close to this. Not saying a 10 minute charge, but 20-25 minutes for 300 miles is reasonable.

Just because city dwellers or small state residents don't use their cars for longer range doesn't mean that they are not used for long range travel on a weekly or even daily basis by those outside the cities. (and yes, I have lived in both and "50 miles away" means something drastically different to residents of large states vs someone from a small state. To a person from a large state, that might be a trip to the nearest shopping mall, to a small state person, that could be another state away)

I've heard too many times the center of the country being called "flyover country". For many of us, "flyover country" is "home"

 

[Stonehauler]

Agreed all points, except that Delaware isn't "flyover country", it's "don't blink or you'll miss it" country

yeah, but while I now live in Delaware, the midwest is still home for me...

 

[Trackaholic]

IMO the biggest hindrance to electric vehicle adoption is recharge time and infrastructure, not range. My GT350 has a highway range of about 300 miles, maybe a bit more, and while it is on the low side for an ICE vehicle, the car is still great for road trips. I know that it will be relatively painless to refuel when the time comes due to the large number of gas stations and the standard nozzles. I can go anywhere and get gas in minutes with only a credit card.

If I could go 250 miles on a charge, then refill in 10 minutes for another 250 miles (maybe even 200 would be fine), and if I could stop basically anywhere and have an available “station”, and if I could pay with a credit card (no signing up for stupid apps, no need to connect to the internet, or other BS like that) then I think EVs would be fine for most people. Charging prices would need to be prominently displayed, charging gimmicks (like connection fees) would need to be eliminated, and charging plugs and charging rates (electricity flow rates) would need to be standardized and clearly marked and reliable.

The government can talk about banning the sale of ICE vehicles all they want, but without forcing standardization and a ubiquitous charging network, and without breakthroughs in battery tech, the EVs will always face a tough battle.

Not to mention the strain on the power grid. Each EV filling station will need its own little power plant to refuel all these EVs.

I personally prefer the plug-in hybrid model, and currently have a Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid. I get the benefits of electric efficiency, brake regen, low maintenance, and smooth, silent running most of the time, and the convenience of gas refueling on long trips. I think going that route could have huge benefits, especially while battery tech is still lagging.

-T

 

[Stonehauler]

Right now, I agree the infrastructure for EVs is not there. However, there is also the matter of technology for charging the batteries. Right now, the current battery tech presents a limitation to how fast the batteries can recharge to full...or even 80 percent. There is also the issue of power loss over time and the number of charge/discharge cycles a battery can undertake.

All of these are being worked on and there are some very promising techs that are being developed that will improve on many of today's limitations.
Energy density, recharge times, and the ability to resist degradation are improving and by 2024, several of these techs may be ready for mass production, while others probably will have delays. We will need to wait and see how things go.

Personally, I would like to see 500-ish miles (640 km) of range for EVs. I would like to see 20-80 percent charge times in the range of 10-15 minutes. With those numbers, that gives be a driveable range of 300 miles on a 15 minute charge, which is what I would consider the minimum acceptable for consideration - for me and my driving uses.

My cars are for distance driving, not commuting. My main commute is to and from the room down the hall. Outside that, my biggest uses are a 12 mile trip to the grocery store, a 90 mile round trip to a martial arts class (it's a rare art in the US and that's the closest), a 90 mile round trip to the airport when I need to fly somewhere, or a 2-3000 mile road trip with the family (again, round trip including all side trips). Sometimes this is a passenger vehicle making the trip, other times it's a big F-350 loaded to the gills with equipment, luggage, or presents.

Until manufacturers can deliver an EV that works for me, I will continue to use ICE, even if it means I need to just keep my cars longer.

 

[jrsimon27]

I hope we get awd

 

[Hack]

The goal should be 30-50 mile range in 10 minutes of charge for burst charging when level is below 30% and then revert to slow for filling up the rest of the 'tank'.

That's just no good if an EV is an only vehicle. It needs to charge 300 mile range in 5 minutes or less to be competitive. Who wants to stop for 10 minutes to charge every 30 minutes of driving? That's just silly.

Simply put, if electric only cars don't have good range and good recharge speeds, ICE will continue to rule. I can add 400 miles to my vehicle in about 10 minutes with an ICE, 16 if the pump is extremely slow and the tanks nearly empty. If you want widespread adoption of electric cars, they need to be able to get close to this. Not saying a 10 minute charge, but 20-25 minutes for 300 miles is reasonable.

IMO 20 - 25 minutes is way too long.

I wonder if I could start a business building portable generators that you bolt into EVs? The generator could sit in the trunk. Of course there would have to be intake, exhaust and cooling openings in the trunk floor. It could be a small generator with a 10-15 gallon gas tank. It would extend range plus you could refuel very quickly.

Then if you're going on a trip you load up the generator, fill it with fuel and away you go. You can charge the EV while you're driving. Problem solved!

 

[Stonehauler]

Maybe I've done my math wrong, but 1 kWh is about 3.6 MJ
1 L of gasoline contains about 32 MJ of energy.

The BMW i4 (using a similar size car) has an 83.9 kWh battery, Tesla Model 3 is 82 kWh, Lucid Air (longest range at 500miles) is 118 kWh, and the Tesla Model S has up to 100 kWh.

The I4 is rated at around 270 mile Range, but I am not sure if they can use a level 3 charger.

A tank of Gas in the Mustang is 15.5 gallons or 58.6 L
That gives it 1875.2 MJ of energy, or about 540 kWh.

At its best, an ICE is about 1/3 or so energy efficient. 1/3 is thrown out the tailpipe, and 1/3 is put into the cooling system. (NOTE, At BEST...I've seen some say it's averages about 20 percent). So that puts usable energy at around 100-150 kWh.

Currently, the mustang has a published 24 MPG highway mileage number, giving it a 372 mile range. Assuming you never go below a 1/4 of a tank between fuels, that gives you a usable range of 279 miles. MOST cars can actually get above this, so let's go with a 400 mile range on a full tank and 300 not going below a 1/4 for safety.

Let's assume we can add weight without lowering the range significantly. (not a good assumption, but it makes the math easier)

Let's also make sure assumption that people who travel long distances want 300 miles of usable range in the best/fastest charging part of the battery, which is 20-80 percent (matching what most people get from a tank of gas). That means we want a total battery capable of about 500 miles, or about 2x the battery of the BMW i4, or about a 155 kWh battery. (batteries below 20 percent or above 80 percent take longer to charge)

The biggest chargers out there right now are 350 kWh chargers. Since we are only using 60 percent of the battery, we are using about 93 kWh to travel that 300 miles. Assuming a perfect conversion of energy in from the charger to the battery it would take 16 minutes to charge a battery so that it could travel 300 miles. At 90 percent efficiency, it would be 18 minutes, and at 80, it would be 20 minutes. (10-20 percent going to heat during the charge that needs to be removed)

So the minimum we can really expect from today's tech is that if we want a 300 mile range is between 16-18 minutes for a charge. If we want faster, we have to go to 500 kWh or a half MW charger capacity, which would get you around an 11-12 minute charge for those 300 miles.

 

[shogun32]

Who wants to stop for 10 minutes to charge every 30 minutes of driving? That's just silly.

of course it is. I was talking about "just enough charge to get home". An EV without an ICE either as power to drive wheels or as genset is a fool's errand. Hybrid is how things will work on a durable basis.

 

[Hack]

of course it is. I was talking about "just enough charge to get home". An EV without an ICE either as power to drive wheels or as genset is a fool's errand. Hybrid is how things will work on a durable basis.

I agree hybrid is more functional than EV, but pure gas is less expensive, less complicated and more reliable. I just don't see hybrid or EV as being competitive with a pure ICE, unless you just like the technology for the sake of liking technology.

 

[shogun32]

The eco-wienie agenda has NO grounding in efficiency or less cost.

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