What will it take to save the V8 Mustang?

[Bikeman315]

Only if you limit yourself to new cars and limit yourself to no modifications. If you allow modifications and used vehicles there are tons of options.

Well, of course. But this is the 7G forum so I'm guessing most of us on here are talking about the present and future, not the past. I'm planning a 10 year ownership of my 19' and I'm only 3 years in. So many more years with my V8. After that who knows.

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[Hack]

Well, of course. But this is the 7G forum so I'm guessing most of us on here are talking about the present and future, not the past. I'm planning a 10 year ownership of my 19' and I'm only 3 years in. So many more years with my V8. After that who knows.

Yes I want the 7G to be awesome and I'm definitely looking forward to learning about it. I hope that it will be great and that I will want to buy one. But to be honest, I will be pleasantly surprised if the 7G Mustang is better than what I already own. I don't really expect it based on the news I've heard so far. I'm hoping for the best but preparing for the worst.

I've owned my 2017 GT two years now. I don't have a plan to keep it a certain length of time. If there's another car offered for sale that I prefer I will trade the 2017. I'm actually kind of ready to get rid of it, but unfortunately I prefer it over any of the new cars currently for sale (in a similar price range). If GT350 prices come out of the stratosphere I would probably get one.

 

[Stonehauler]

Again...there is nothing we can do to save the V8. Eventually, it will go away. When is still unknown, but I suspect 2035-2040 is a pretty solid date that we won't see it, and we might not see it prior to that either.

Don't think though that just because we move to electric doesn't mean that motor swaps will be done with. In fact, I see the age of electrification as a way to unlock the shadetree mechanic even more than it is currently. You just need to learn what it will take to swap motors vs swapping an engine. Control unit programs, power source (battery) power controllers (inverters, choppers, etc.), motors.

 

[IPOGT]

I can't speak for all Mustang enthusiasts, but for me the V8 engine is pretty much the core of this car. The way the V8 engine sounds, the way it feels when you rev through the RPM band, the way it looks when you pop the hood, its perfect marriage with a manual transmission, the ability to dream about mixing/matching different custom engine parts: for me, all these elements are at the heart of the Mustang experience.

And, yet, here we are now facing a very real possibility that this essential element of the Mustang experience will soon be killed off. I think back to the late '80s when Ford was talking of converting the Mustang into what became the front-wheel-drive Ford Probe. Thankfully, the Mustang was saved from this fate because Mustang enthusiasts spoke up and let their voices be known to Ford. So, then it hit me, are Mustang enthusiasts trying to do the same thing today to help save the V8 engine?

I suppose it's no secret to many members of this forum what's driving this push to eliminate the V8 engine. Sure, there is more than one factor at play, but the greatest factor by far is the next set of government emissions regulations. If you read through what the California Air Resources Board (CARB) is proposing for their Advanced Clear Cars II rulemaking (<https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/sites/default/files/barcu/regact/2022/accii/notice.pdf>), if you consider Executive Orders coming out of the White House (<https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing...-leadership-forward-on-clean-cars-and-trucks/>), it becomes rather clear that our political leaders intend to force battery-electric vehicles (BEV) onto the American driver. I might be in the minority among enthusiasts in that I'm actually quite onboard with efforts to further reduce greenhouse gas emissions like CO2. What I'm NOT at all onboard with is accomplishing this by mandating battery-electric vehicles and banning competing technologies. Why? Because battery-electric is not the only solution for attaining these goals. Rather, when you consider life cycle assessment (LCA) emissions, BEV dependence on raw materials sourced from unfriendly countries, BEV year-over-year driving range loss, and even how BEV adoption will very likely lead to fewer domestic auto industry jobs, I would say that renewable fuel (hydrogen, synfuel, e-fuel, biofuel) internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles absolutely need to also play a key role in cleaning up transportation sector emissions. Yet, CARB has made their intention of pushing for ICE bans clear. What's more, given how the current Administration's EPA has vocally expressed praise for what California is doing, I fear a nation-wide ban may not be far behind.

So, what's a V8 Mustang enthusiast to do? I hope I'm not the only one who has wondered this, and has given serious thought on how to better advocate for saving these cars. Personally, I have already contacted Ford to express pretty much what I've summarized here. I do hope other enthusiasts are doing the same. Of course, at some point, Ford can only do so much when regulators literally seek to ban certain technologies, even environmentally friendly technologies like hydrogen and synfuel ICE. The next round of EPA regulations is still in a state of flux, but I'm afraid time is running out when it comes to the CARB Advanced Clean Cars II (ACC II) regulation which seeks to ban cars like the V8 Mustang. CARB's ACC II regulation is set to mandate that 80% of new cars sold in California and other CARB states be battery-electric by 2035. The remaining 20% may be plug-in hybrid-electric, but this of course reduces the ICE to serving as nothing more than an onboard generator. Note it's highly unlikely that any automaker would consider equipping a car like the Mustang with a V8 engine if this engine can only serve as a generator. The public hearing for CARB's Advanced Clean Cars II (ACC II) rulemaking is set for June 9, 2022. Up until May 31, 2022, public comments can be sent to CARB per the following link: <https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/applications/public-comments>. Whether you live in California, a CARB state, or a non-CARB state, I strongly encourage you to make your voice heard. I know we're not all residents of California or CARB states, but CARB regulations still have tremendous effect on deciding which cars the entire country can and cannot buy. Personally, I will be respectfully making my stance known to CARB. My plan is to request that at least a fraction of new cars may still be sold as pure ICE vehicles or mild-hybrid vehicles on the condition that the ICE be fueled by renewables such as synfuels or hydrogen. If CARB can make for this allowance, I do think there will be very real hope that the V8 Mustang can live on.

What does everyone think? Am I on to something here, or am I just wasting my time? I know I want to believe that "little people" like us can at least get some say in matters like this, especially if there is a strong case to be made regarding what we're advocating. I do think the case is strong. Per LCA emissions studies and mineral resource studies coming from both the auto industry and independent research institutes, there is good reason to anticipate that making the entire automotive fleet battery-electric and only battery-electric will cause at least as many problems as it seeks to solve, environmental problems included. Pursuing an "all the above" approach which not only pushes battery-electric, but also renewable fuel ICE, would seem to be the real optimum for environmental sustainability. Of course, central to why we're on this forum, there's the added benefit that regulator approval of renewable fuel ICE could keep cars like the V8 Mustang alive for generations to come.

- 407cid

Why overthink it. Buy one and keep it in the garage. It’s been doing a pretty good job saving my V8 mustang for years.

 

[Hack]

Again...there is nothing we can do to save the V8. Eventually, it will go away. When is still unknown, but I suspect 2035-2040 is a pretty solid date that we won't see it, and we might not see it prior to that either.

Don't think though that just because we move to electric doesn't mean that motor swaps will be done with. In fact, I see the age of electrification as a way to unlock the shadetree mechanic even more than it is currently. You just need to learn what it will take to swap motors vs swapping an engine. Control unit programs, power source (battery) power controllers (inverters, choppers, etc.), motors.

It's pretty dangerous working on an electric vehicle. Kind of like working on an internal combusion engine while it's running. Touch the wrong thing and you are dead.

I'd do a gas engine swap in a heartbeat, but I don't think I would try messing with an EV.

 

[Stonehauler]

It's pretty dangerous working on an electric vehicle. Kind of like working on an internal combusion engine while it's running. Touch the wrong thing and you are dead.

I'd do a gas engine swap in a heartbeat, but I don't think I would try messing with an EV.

I would be shocked (pun intended) if there was not a battery disconnect that would safely isolate the battery from the system. Once you isolate the battery, it would be fairly easy to work on an electric vehicle, and very safe.

Don't get me wrong, you can screw something up if you don't know what you are doing, but if it's a dead circuit, it's probably less dangerous than playing around with fuel tank. Take good precautions and know what you are doing, and you will be fine.

Taking an engine out, rebuilding it, and putting a new engine in takes skill and knowledge to ensure you are not going to kill yourself or the people in the car later on. The same will hold true for modifying electric vehicles, but you will need a different set of knowledge and skill. I've worked on cars, and I also work on the extremely high voltage grid. Respect what you are working on and take the right precautions and it's not nearly as dangerous as you make it out to be. Or...It is dangerous, but no more so than an ICE.

btw, if you don't think the 12V battery in your car already isn't dangerous, drop a wrench across the terminals. (no, really, don't do this, it's extremely dangerous and stupid)

 

[Hack]

I would be shocked (pun intended) if there was not a battery disconnect that would safely isolate the battery from the system. Once you isolate the battery, it would be fairly easy to work on an electric vehicle, and very safe.

Don't get me wrong, you can screw something up if you don't know what you are doing, but if it's a dead circuit, it's probably less dangerous than playing around with fuel tank. Take good precautions and know what you are doing, and you will be fine.

Taking an engine out, rebuilding it, and putting a new engine in takes skill and knowledge to ensure you are not going to kill yourself or the people in the car later on. The same will hold true for modifying electric vehicles, but you will need a different set of knowledge and skill. I've worked on cars, and I also work on the extremely high voltage grid. Respect what you are working on and take the right precautions and it's not nearly as dangerous as you make it out to be. Or...It is dangerous, but no more so than an ICE.

btw, if you don't think the 12V battery in your car already isn't dangerous, drop a wrench across the terminals. (no, really, don't do this, it's extremely dangerous and stupid)

12 volts isn't very dangerous, but EVs also don't use 12 volts. Google says 450 volts for a Tesla battery. That's real danger. The nice thing about an ICE is you can see and hear if it's running. As long as it isn't running you only have to worry if it just ran and it's still hot. Super easy to avoid any harm. On an EV you can't see or hear whether touching that connection will kill you.

I saw a video with people working on an aftermarket EV and they were using two separate people for certain things (like voltage checks) to reduce the possibility of getting hurt. I still think working on an EV is like golfing in a thunderstorm. Not smart. I wouldn't do it unless I 100% knew exactly what I was doing.

 

[Stonehauler]

12 volts isn't very dangerous, but EVs also don't use 12 volts. Google says 450 volts for a Tesla battery. That's real danger. The nice thing about an ICE is you can see and hear if it's running. As long as it isn't running you only have to worry if it just ran and it's still hot. Super easy to avoid any harm. On an EV you can't see or hear whether touching that connection will kill you.

I saw a video with people working on an aftermarket EV and they were using two separate people for certain things (like voltage checks) to reduce the possibility of getting hurt. I still think working on an EV is like golfing in a thunderstorm. Not smart. I wouldn't do it unless I 100% knew exactly what I was doing.

Electricity is no more dangerous than gasoline. Both will kill you given the chance, and both will kill you if you do not respect it.

I am an electrical engineer. My area is utility scale power (hundreds of thousands of volts) and analyzing accidents and events on the system. I have seen people die and maimed by accident just doing their job. Trust me, I respect just how dangerous electric power can be. I've worked on electric cars and even designed and built a solar powered car when I was at university, with my project specifically being the power conversion systems going between the battery, solar cells, and motor.

Gasoline is also dangerous. People have died and been maimed on accident when working with that stuff. I've worked on cars most of my life and I have gone to school to learn more, such as air conditioning system, engine rebuilding, etc. I have tuned engines, and I know experienced mechanics that have lost fingers getting their hands too close to moving items, yet for some things, you must work on the engine while it's running. A fuel leak on a hot engine can be an absolute disaster.

People tend to minimize the danger they are used to . You and most other modders are used to the dangers of gasoline and internal combustion engines. You know the systems and you are aware of the dangers and take steps to mitigate them. Once electric motors become more prevalent and we get to know those systems, I guarantee that you will soon see people ripping out motors, adding in high performance capacitor systems, changing out the power converters, maybe even changing out entire battery systems to go to a higher voltage system.

What you are experiencing now is apprehension about not knowing these systems. Yes, you will need to be careful. Yes, you will need need to take steps to keep you safe, but these will be no more sensible then the precautions you already take when doing work on your current vehicle. The only difference will be which precautions you take. Some will be the same, others will be new.

On, and 12 V is more than enough to kill, maim, or injure you in the right circumstances, especially with a big battery holding a lot of charge. If you are stupid or careless, it doesn't take 400V to kill you.

 

[IceGamer]

What will it take to save the V8?

A miracle in the EU… They just banned ICE cars entirely from 2035 onward. Maybe there is still a chance that the calculation is modified so that synthetic gasoline can be considered but I doubt it.

That’s it. What a bunch of …
There are more than a million people working for retailers surrounding ICE cars. Most of those jobs will be gone comes 2035. Thank you EU… I which we would leave the EU like Britain did and do our own thing but then again there are enough “environmentalists” here in Germany that don’t care about facts but only about fascism and ideology…

https://www.politico.eu/article/eur...uropean Parliament,to clean up road transport.

 

[Twin Turbo]

Sadly, leaving the EU won't help. Despite us leaving, the UK will still implement the ICE ban within similar timescales although I guess, in theory, it would be easier for our Gov't to back track on that decision alone.

 

[IPOGT]

Electricity is no more dangerous than gasoline. Both will kill you given the chance, and both will kill you if you do not respect it.

I am an electrical engineer. My area is utility scale power (hundreds of thousands of volts) and analyzing accidents and events on the system. I have seen people die and maimed by accident just doing their job. Trust me, I respect just how dangerous electric power can be. I've worked on electric cars and even designed and built a solar powered car when I was at university, with my project specifically being the power conversion systems going between the battery, solar cells, and motor.

Gasoline is also dangerous. People have died and been maimed on accident when working with that stuff. I've worked on cars most of my life and I have gone to school to learn more, such as air conditioning system, engine rebuilding, etc. I have tuned engines, and I know experienced mechanics that have lost fingers getting their hands too close to moving items, yet for some things, you must work on the engine while it's running. A fuel leak on a hot engine can be an absolute disaster.

People tend to minimize the danger they are used to . You and most other modders are used to the dangers of gasoline and internal combustion engines. You know the systems and you are aware of the dangers and take steps to mitigate them. Once electric motors become more prevalent and we get to know those systems, I guarantee that you will soon see people ripping out motors, adding in high performance capacitor systems, changing out the power converters, maybe even changing out entire battery systems to go to a higher voltage system.

What you are experiencing now is apprehension about not knowing these systems. Yes, you will need to be careful. Yes, you will need need to take steps to keep you safe, but these will be no more sensible then the precautions you already take when doing work on your current vehicle. The only difference will be which precautions you take. Some will be the same, others will be new.

On, and 12 V is more than enough to kill, maim, or injure you in the right circumstances, especially with a big battery holding a lot of charge. If you are stupid or careless, it doesn't take 400V to kill you.

Great post. Generally speaking, anything that generates any usable amount of energy has inherent risks associated.

 

[IPOGT]

Electricity is no more dangerous than gasoline. Both will kill you given the chance, and both will kill you if you do not respect it.

I am an electrical engineer. My area is utility scale power (hundreds of thousands of volts) and analyzing accidents and events on the system. I have seen people die and maimed by accident just doing their job. Trust me, I respect just how dangerous electric power can be. I've worked on electric cars and even designed and built a solar powered car when I was at university, with my project specifically being the power conversion systems going between the battery, solar cells, and motor.

Gasoline is also dangerous. People have died and been maimed on accident when working with that stuff. I've worked on cars most of my life and I have gone to school to learn more, such as air conditioning system, engine rebuilding, etc. I have tuned engines, and I know experienced mechanics that have lost fingers getting their hands too close to moving items, yet for some things, you must work on the engine while it's running. A fuel leak on a hot engine can be an absolute disaster.

People tend to minimize the danger they are used to . You and most other modders are used to the dangers of gasoline and internal combustion engines. You know the systems and you are aware of the dangers and take steps to mitigate them. Once electric motors become more prevalent and we get to know those systems, I guarantee that you will soon see people ripping out motors, adding in high performance capacitor systems, changing out the power converters, maybe even changing out entire battery systems to go to a higher voltage system.

What you are experiencing now is apprehension about not knowing these systems. Yes, you will need to be careful. Yes, you will need need to take steps to keep you safe, but these will be no more sensible then the precautions you already take when doing work on your current vehicle. The only difference will be which precautions you take. Some will be the same, others will be new.

On, and 12 V is more than enough to kill, maim, or injure you in the right circumstances, especially with a big battery holding a lot of charge. If you are stupid or careless, it doesn't take 400V to kill you.

Let’s see how many harnesses will burn…..

 

[Stonehauler]

Let’s see how many harnesses will burn…..

just like you may need to replace a fuel line and a fuel pump for a higher performance engine, you are going to have to replace cables going from the battery to the motors (that might be one performance upgrade...lower resistance cables, so less I^2xR losses on the cable, less of a voltage drop to the motor (it would be small anyway). It's about knowing the systems, but yes, I guarantee, someone will burn their car up/out by putting cheap wire in...because wire is wire and this one was 25 bucks while that other cable set was 300. These are the lessons modders will have to learn.

 

[IPOGT]

just like you may need to replace a fuel line and a fuel pump for a higher performance engine, you are going to have to replace cables going from the battery to the motors (that might be one performance upgrade...lower resistance cables, so less I^2xR losses on the cable, less of a voltage drop to the motor (it would be small anyway). It's about knowing the systems, but yes, I guarantee, someone will burn their car up/out by putting cheap wire in...because wire is wire and this one was 25 bucks while that other cable set was 300. These are the lessons modders will have to learn.

I can see someone say,” just put a bigger fuse in” or, use non rated wire and die from smoke inhalation (some wire insulation is extremely toxic when burned). Are there even codes for wiring a passenger automobile? I don’t seem to recall anything about that. If there aren’t, I’ll bet they’re coming soon.

 

[LSchicago]

Again...there is nothing we can do to save the V8. Eventually, it will go away. When is still unknown, but I suspect 2035-2040 is a pretty solid date that we won't see it, and we might not see it prior to that either.

Don't think though that just because we move to electric doesn't mean that motor swaps will be done with. In fact, I see the age of electrification as a way to unlock the shadetree mechanic even more than it is currently. You just need to learn what it will take to swap motors vs swapping an engine. Control unit programs, power source (battery) power controllers (inverters, choppers, etc.), motors.

I'm waiting to see the EV hot rot shops pop up.

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