S650 steering and handling is night and day difference compared to S550 Mustang says Chief Engineer Ed Krenz

[Bikeman315]

Electric assist on the brakes.

Jesus.....the best thing on the car, and they go and fuck with it.

Ford continues to fail at every turn.

Maybe wait until they are tested before condeming Ford. They could be the best brakes ever.

unless it is better than my modified GT, im not buying one.

So you want to compare a car with a stock suspension to your heavily modified suspension. Yup, makes total sense.

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[OppoLock]

Maybe wait until they are tested before condeming Ford. They could be the best brakes ever.


So you want to compare a car with a stock suspension to your heavily modified suspension. Yup, makes total sense.

I’m sure 60 year old John Doe would love to blow out his back on a speed bump because Ford decided to stick KW V3s on stock Mustangs

 

[BoostRabbitGT]

Is there a general consensus on a car with the "best handling/steering feel"? (My guess would be the Miata.)

 

[OppoLock]

Is there a general consensus on a car with the "best handling/steering feel"? (My guess would be the Miata.)

Probably Porsche’s GT# lineup in terms of holy grail volume road cars. Only recent ones I’ve driven were a buddy’s 781 GTS (not a real GT car but still great) and a 991 GT3 RS (one of those rent a track car things).

 

[VRYALT3R3D]

So you want to compare a car with a stock suspension to your heavily modified suspension. Yup, makes total sense.

Yup, sure does. The ZL1 1LE is much better than my GT with modified suspension. If the Mustang can't exceed my benchmark, I won't bother with it

 

[Spart]

I think the S550 steering is pretty good for electronic steering. The tires and wheels definitely turn in direct proportion to the amount the steering wheel is turned.

By the way you worded this, it sounds like you think the S550 is steer by wire (which could have the wheels turn in a varying proportion to the steering wheel, with different steering "maps" or whatever.)

This is not the case, the steering wheel is mechanically connected to the wheels. The E in EPAS does indeed stand for Electric, but the rest of the letters in that acronym stand for Power Assisted Steering. The electronic bit merely replaces the hydraulic bit used in older vehicles. You can still turn the wheels in an S550 when the EPAS rack is unpowered, it's just really heavy. I actually do this pretty frequently to put the flat bottom of my GT350 wheel in the best place for egress, so I'm less likely to damage the wheel with keys or a knife or some other hard object in my pocket.

Even Teslas are not steer by wire - yet. From the sounds of things, they're moving in that direction.

 

[Spart]

Is there a general consensus on a car with the "best handling/steering feel"? (My guess would be the Miata.)

I don't know about consensus, but back when I was a poor teenager I had a 95 Toyota Tercel on full Tein coilovers, Whiteline swaybars, and sticky rubber. But most importantly, under 2000 pounds. You could essentially change lanes telepathically. The steering was just on a different level from everything else I've ever driven.

There's a reason why people love old Civics and CRXes and the like. You can engineer all sorts of things into a car, but you can never really overcome weight. The best handling/steering feel is always going to boil down to lightness at the end of the day.

 

[Hack]

By the way you worded this, it sounds like you think the S550 is steer by wire (which could have the wheels turn in a varying proportion to the steering wheel, with different steering "maps" or whatever.)

This is not the case, the steering wheel is mechanically connected to the wheels. The E in EPAS does indeed stand for Electric, but the rest of the letters in that acronym stand for Power Assisted Steering. The electronic bit merely replaces the hydraulic bit used in older vehicles. You can still turn the wheels in an S550 when the EPAS rack is unpowered, it's just really heavy. I actually do this pretty frequently to put the flat bottom of my GT350 wheel in the best place for egress, so I'm less likely to damage the wheel with keys or a knife or some other hard object in my pocket.

Even Teslas are not steer by wire - yet. From the sounds of things, they're moving in that direction.

Exactly. There is a direct connection steering wheel to wheels and turning the steering wheel makes the front wheels turn. Repeatably and accurately.

There isn't much else to complain about with regards to the steering in my opinion. The wheels turn properly. The only other thing someone might want is feel. And almost no cars with EPAS have good steering feel.

I'll repeat it. IMO the steering in Mustangs is fine. There's nothing wrong with it.

 

[Hack]

Is there a general consensus on a car with the "best handling/steering feel"? (My guess would be the Miata.)

The general consensus is that older cars with hydraulic steering could have good feel. And there were a number of cars that did have good feel. Porsches and BMWs commonly are the brands that I've heard reviewers rave about the most. I don't know if I've ever heard about the Miata having good steering feel, but I would assume the older cars with hydraulic steering do.

I believe McLarens and some Mercedes still have hydraulic power steering. If I were to guess about a car that might have extremely good steering feel, I would say McLaren F1. It's really light and really well made.

 

[BoostRabbitGT]

I guess my next question would be...what parts of handling and steering feel are subjective, and which parts are based on factual data? (For reference, I daily drive my EcoBoost with Sport steering. I tried driving on Normal a few days ago and it felt too light in my mind taking a sharp turn.)

 

[Hack]

The thing about steering feel as I understand it is you feel through the wheel when the tires are losing grip. So it doesn't really apply to driving around on the street. Possibly with really good feel you can notice a difference as the front end becomes more loaded due to cornering forces. But still during 99% of street driving a Mustang is not cornering hard enough to feel an appreciable load.

I think steering feel is one of those things that possibly driving professionals notice more easily but most of us aren't going to be able to tell. I believe I sense with my inner ear more than my hands when the front of the car is losing grip. Also modern heavy cars have really large heavy wheels and tires. The wheels and tires have so much rotational inertia that they damp out any feelings from being transmitted to the steering.

Definitely having a really tight harness will help a person to focus on things like steering feel rather than working hard just to keep in position behind the wheel when on track. I've noticed a big difference on track when using a harness and being relaxed in the corners rather than having every muscle in my body tense trying not to slide around thereby losing control of the car.

Steering feel in a modern car might just be an urban legend more than an actual thing, due to the big, heavy tires and wheels that have so much grip plus electrically power assisted steering. I think with a much lighter car that has less power and tiny wheels you will feel the tires let go, but when you get to a 4,000 lb monstrosity with 300+ section width tires, it's less likely.

 

[saleen367]

Rest assured Krenz is referring to the current base GT (as a comparison), which for all intents and purposes, is not marketed as a track focused car.

Every manufacturer has to build in compromises. Ford has (per Krenz) taken some of those compromises (to a degree) out of the S650 to appeal to the more spirited driving buyer. Most of those compromises consist of NVH mitigating, I.E. bushings, sound deadening, insulating materials. No one wants to drive a car as a daily with solid bushings.

The majority of Mustang buyers (as a %) are still the average Joe/Jane that drive the cars to/from work or for weekend road trips. We, the critics here, are really the exception, not the norm.

 

[Charlemagne]

Model for model guys. GT vs. SS. PP VS 1LE. Ecoboost vs whatever the base Camaro is.
No cherry picking.

Except they are fully comparable, Mach 1/PP2 vs 1SS 1LE. 1LE has 285/30 tires front, 305/30 rear and other chassis improvements meant for track. Endurance (coolers) aside, their handling is definitely comparable, as Randy Probst showed.

 

[OppoLock]

The thing about steering feel as I understand it is you feel through the wheel when the tires are losing grip. So it doesn't really apply to driving around on the street. Possibly with really good feel you can notice a difference as the front end becomes more loaded due to cornering forces. But still during 99% of street driving a Mustang is not cornering hard enough to feel an appreciable load.

I think steering feel is one of those things that possibly driving professionals notice more easily but most of us aren't going to be able to tell. I believe I sense with my inner ear more than my hands when the front of the car is losing grip. Also modern heavy cars have really large heavy wheels and tires. The wheels and tires have so much rotational inertia that they damp out any feelings from being transmitted to the steering.

Definitely having a really tight harness will help a person to focus on things like steering feel rather than working hard just to keep in position behind the wheel when on track. I've noticed a big difference on track when using a harness and being relaxed in the corners rather than having every muscle in my body tense trying not to slide around thereby losing control of the car.

Steering feel in a modern car might just be an urban legend more than an actual thing, due to the big, heavy tires and wheels that have so much grip plus electrically power assisted steering. I think with a much lighter car that has less power and tiny wheels you will feel the tires let go, but when you get to a 4,000 lb monstrosity with 300+ section width tires, it's less likely.

I look at the following criteria:

• On-center feel:
-how wide is the deadzone before the front end responds
-how well does it hold a straight line (which from my understanding largely comes down to caster angle)
-how busy is the front end or how much does it tramline

• Resistance/Load:
-when does resistance kick in; does it kick in early or does it start too late
-does it increase in load proportional to the amount of lock dialed in
-does it build up and lighten intuitively based on the front tires reaching or exceeding their friction circles
-is it over/under boosted, making the front end too heavy or too darty/floaty

• Texture/Feedback:
-does it transmit road bumps and textures; can you tell what general surface you’re driving on based on said feedback
-does the wheel provide sufficient bump/rebound/deflection feedback

•Accuracy:
-does it go exactly where you expect it to?
-is there a ton of slack in the input/response?
-do you have to saw at the wheel or make micro-corrections to hold a line

•Ratio:
-is it linear?
-is it fast (eg 11:1) or slow (eg 17:1)?

Wheel:
-diameter and thickness
-are the 9-and-3 ergonomic or is it shaped like one of those aftermarket monstrosities that people stick on their GTIs and Mustangs

The main things affected by HPAS to EPAS are the resistance and loading characteristics. EPAS systems tend to be extremely linear, to an artificial degree, with less proportional and intuitive loading based on what the front tires do. On the flip side, they provide massive levels of adjustment, don’t make fluid-pumping noises when crawling around parking lots at full lock, and are more fuel efficient too.

 

[BoostRabbitGT]

Hack and OppoLock, thank you for your replies to my questions. Even if my driving is limited to the streets, I think I have a better understanding now of handling/steering feel than I did previously.

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