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[Jonyxz]

Which begs the question, why do they integrate instead of supplement? Fwd, rwd, awd are options. e-motors for fwd, ice for rwd, hybrid for awd, all user selectable with hybrid (supplemental + integrated ) being the most complex calculation.

Possibly to save money. Integrating(vs optioning) guarantees predictable production numbers and reduces inventory overstock on complex and perishable components.

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[Gregs24]

The integrated solution has worked pretty well for Toyota - incredible reliability and durability.

 

[Stonehauler]

Possibly to save money. Integrating(vs optioning) guarantees predictable production numbers and reduces inventory overstock on complex and perishable components.

Let's talk about how BMW's drivetrain works in the 5 series.

Most cars are X Drive or AWD. These cars favor RWD bias for their drive wheels, and shift torque to the front wheels (and maybe from side to side) as traction slips.

BMW integrates a motor into the transmission of the vehicle. in other words, it's in series with the ICE. This allows the motor to use the same torque shifting controls that are used for the ICE.

This allows for very seamless integration of the systems if you do it right.

Putting ICE powering the rear wheels and motors controlling the front wheels is an engineering nightmare, even if you use hub motors. This also requires 2 motors, one for each wheel, putting additional cost and expense on the system, as well as increasing weight on the front axle and unsprung weight. Putting the electric motor at the transmission put the motor in the center of the car or even slightly behind the center, putting more weight towards the rear for a better weight distribution.

I suspect that in order to meeting certain emissions standards, the engineers were told to use the electric motor first, then utilize stop start tech to bring the engine online when more power was needed. This would work great in stop and go traffic, non-spirited driving, and especially for playing the US EPA games. Unfortunately, it's really bad for the people who actually like to drive in a spirited manner or have wide open roads in front of them and an empty on-ramp. or someone who needs to accelerate to avoid an accident (yes, sometimes hitting the brake is the wrong thing to do). It's the time needed to start the engine and then bring it to speed that creates the delay and the problem with the car. Normally, it's not a big deal since you are taking your foot off the brake, shifting it over to the gas pedal, and then pressing down to start acceleration. But when you are used to almost instant downshifts and great throttle response as the car leaps forward and presses your back into the seat...that one second delay...well it feels like the falcon just failed to jump to lightspeed and THEN it kicks in.

IMO, BMW tried for the "elegant" solution, but that resulted in a failure to create a worthy successor to the previous generations of 550s

 

[Jonyxz]

Let's talk about how BMW's drivetrain works in the 5 series.

Most cars are X Drive or AWD. These cars favor RWD bias for their drive wheels, and shift torque to the front wheels (and maybe from side to side) as traction slips.

BMW integrates a motor into the transmission of the vehicle. in other words, it's in series with the ICE. This allows the motor to use the same torque shifting controls that are used for the ICE.

This allows for very seamless integration of the systems if you do it right.

Putting ICE powering the rear wheels and motors controlling the front wheels is an engineering nightmare, even if you use hub motors. This also requires 2 motors, one for each wheel, putting additional cost and expense on the system, as well as increasing weight on the front axle and unsprung weight. Putting the electric motor at the transmission put the motor in the center of the car or even slightly behind the center, putting more weight towards the rear for a better weight distribution.

I suspect that in order to meeting certain emissions standards, the engineers were told to use the electric motor first, then utilize stop start tech to bring the engine online when more power was needed. This would work great in stop and go traffic, non-spirited driving, and especially for playing the US EPA games. Unfortunately, it's really bad for the people who actually like to drive in a spirited manner or have wide open roads in front of them and an empty on-ramp. or someone who needs to accelerate to avoid an accident (yes, sometimes hitting the brake is the wrong thing to do). It's the time needed to start the engine and then bring it to speed that creates the delay and the problem with the car. Normally, it's not a big deal since you are taking your foot off the brake, shifting it over to the gas pedal, and then pressing down to start acceleration. But when you are used to almost instant downshifts and great throttle response as the car leaps forward and presses your back into the seat...that one second delay...well it feels like the falcon just failed to jump to lightspeed and THEN it kicks in.

IMO, BMW tried for the "elegant" solution, but that resulted in a failure to create a worthy successor to the previous generations of 550s

Unbelievable how complicate these hibrids are getting. I'd take the previous ICE gen anyday rather than these new heavy overengineered monsters. Feels like they are trying too hard. At that point just go full electric(as they are doing for the new M3).

 

[young at heart]

Unbelievable how complicate these hibrids are getting. I'd take the previous ICE gen anyday rather than these new heavy overengineered monsters. Feels like they are trying too hard. At that point just go full electric(as they are doing for the new M3).

Who is it that has a hybrid with one electric motor on each wheel? Seems like Ferrari, could be Porsche I don’t remember. Try to even begin to imagine the complexity!

I accept that everyone is different but personally I just can’t see the hybrid thing regardless of any performance increase. I think with the DH handling package cars I may have finally gotten about all I can handle. In my case any more would probably just come down to bragging rights. Jonyxz you have one so you get it!

 

[Zig]

Let's talk about how BMW's drivetrain works in the 5 series.

Most cars are X Drive or AWD. These cars favor RWD bias for their drive wheels, and shift torque to the front wheels (and maybe from side to side) as traction slips.

BMW integrates a motor into the transmission of the vehicle. in other words, it's in series with the ICE. This allows the motor to use the same torque shifting controls that are used for the ICE.

This allows for very seamless integration of the systems if you do it right.

Putting ICE powering the rear wheels and motors controlling the front wheels is an engineering nightmare, even if you use hub motors. This also requires 2 motors, one for each wheel, putting additional cost and expense on the system, as well as increasing weight on the front axle and unsprung weight. Putting the electric motor at the transmission put the motor in the center of the car or even slightly behind the center, putting more weight towards the rear for a better weight distribution.

I suspect that in order to meeting certain emissions standards, the engineers were told to use the electric motor first, then utilize stop start tech to bring the engine online when more power was needed. This would work great in stop and go traffic, non-spirited driving, and especially for playing the US EPA games. Unfortunately, it's really bad for the people who actually like to drive in a spirited manner or have wide open roads in front of them and an empty on-ramp. or someone who needs to accelerate to avoid an accident (yes, sometimes hitting the brake is the wrong thing to do). It's the time needed to start the engine and then bring it to speed that creates the delay and the problem with the car. Normally, it's not a big deal since you are taking your foot off the brake, shifting it over to the gas pedal, and then pressing down to start acceleration. But when you are used to almost instant downshifts and great throttle response as the car leaps forward and presses your back into the seat...that one second delay...well it feels like the falcon just failed to jump to lightspeed and THEN it kicks in.

IMO, BMW tried for the "elegant" solution, but that resulted in a failure to create a worthy successor to the previous generations of 550s

Why transmission as opposed to differential?

 

[Stonehauler]

Why transmission as opposed to differential?

I have no idea, but I suspect the reason is that the company that makes the transmission BMW uses (ZF) has options for ICE, mild hybrid, and plug in electric hybrids, making integration much easier as the transmission company has already done it for you.
https://www.zf.com/products/en/cars/products_64275.html

BMW just builds the management systems that control the flow of power to the motor and when to start the engine.

 

[Zig]

I have no idea, but I suspect the reason is that the company that makes the transmission BMW uses (ZF) has options for ICE, mild hybrid, and plug in electric hybrids, making integration much easier as the transmission company has already done it for you.
https://www.zf.com/products/en/cars/products_64275.html

BMW just builds the management systems that control the flow of power to the motor and when to start the engine.

Imo, swapping a rear is much easier than changing a tranny.

 

[Stonehauler]

Imo, swapping a rear is much easier than changing a tranny.

Ahh, but it isn't swapped. The electric motor and transmission are one unit, so they just need to select the appropriate one during assembly. The unit is an 8 speed auto and IIRC, is not a serviced unit. If something goes wrong, they just replace the entire unit.

 

[Zig]

Ahh, but it isn't swapped. The electric motor and transmission are one unit, so they just need to select the appropriate one during assembly. The unit is an 8 speed auto and IIRC, is not a serviced unit. If something goes wrong, they just replace the entire unit.

Hence the complexity, aren’t electric motors and transmissions counter unless used as a line? Electricity is modulated whereas mechanical is transformed

 

[Stonehauler]

Hence the complexity, aren’t electric motors and transmissions counter unless used as a line? Electricity is modulated whereas mechanical is transformed

again, this is where ZF has done a lot of the work FOR the automotive manufacturers. They already put the systems in place that take the output of the engine, combine it with the electric motor output, and then send it to the wheels, along with the ability to disconnect the engine and use the motor exclusively. It's an all in one package that you can drop an engine on the front and then hook it up to the drive wheels. Since there are a number of transmissions ZF uses, it can also be used in different versions of the car with standard drive, mild hybrid, and PHEV with just a change in transmission and engine control module.

Let's say you did put the electric motor on the diff. First, it would need to be ahead of the diff between the drive shaft and the differential. Instead of driving the transmission outputs through the transmission itself, it would be back fed into the transmission through the driveshaft. It would also require a significantly higher level of integration by the car manufacturer vs. the all-in-one unit.

So yes, you could put the motor as an input to the rear diff, but on an AWD hybrid vehicle, it makes a lot more sense to use a single motor unit like ZF did.

Again, this is the solution BMW chose to use, along with Dodge, Mercedes, and others that use the ZF transmission. Ford could use a different solution, as I don't know if their A10 transmission has an integrated motor option.

 

[Zig]

again, this is where ZF has done a lot of the work FOR the automotive manufacturers. They already put the systems in place that take the output of the engine, combine it with the electric motor output, and then send it to the wheels, along with the ability to disconnect the engine and use the motor exclusively. It's an all in one package that you can drop an engine on the front and then hook it up to the drive wheels. Since there are a number of transmissions ZF uses, it can also be used in different versions of the car with standard drive, mild hybrid, and PHEV with just a change in transmission and engine control module.

Let's say you did put the electric motor on the diff. First, it would need to be ahead of the diff between the drive shaft and the differential. Instead of driving the transmission outputs through the transmission itself, it would be back fed into the transmission through the driveshaft. It would also require a significantly higher level of integration by the car manufacturer vs. the all-in-one unit.

So yes, you could put the motor as an input to the rear diff, but on an AWD hybrid vehicle, it makes a lot more sense to use a single motor unit like ZF did.

Again, this is the solution BMW chose to use, along with Dodge, Mercedes, and others that use the ZF transmission. Ford could use a different solution, as I don't know if their A10 transmission has an integrated motor option.

Electric motor ‘as’ the differential simply needs modulation? Complexity for complexity’s sake?

 

[Stonehauler]

Electric motor ‘as’ the differential simply needs modulation? Complexity for complexity’s sake?

Sorry, at this point it almost feels like you are trying to troll.

That said, ZF produces a solution that automakers can use without standing up their own motor manufacturing line, or trying to integrate transmission management, engine management, and motor management, likely from 3 different manufacturers.

Including the motor in the transmission also allow for the cooling systems on the transmission to be used to cool the motor. MOST differentials are passively cooled, so it would require yet another cooling system for the electric motor.

Using the all-in-one solution simplifies the use of an EV. You choose the system you want (no EV, Mild Hybrid, Plug in hybrid), and RWD or AWD and that spits out the transmission you install in that particular vehicle. Now you only need to integrate your drive/engine management system with your transmission, which is something all vehicle manufacturers do, and that's it. Your engine, their transmission, done. While there are a few other choices that need to be made, these are the big ones.

TLDR, the engine+Transmission/motor package reduces complexity vs three separate modules of motor+engine+transmission.

 

[GrabThatBlue]

Sorry, at this point it almost feels like you are trying to troll.

That said, ZF produces a solution that automakers can use without standing up their own motor manufacturing line, or trying to integrate transmission management, engine management, and motor management, likely from 3 different manufacturers.

Including the motor in the transmission also allow for the cooling systems on the transmission to be used to cool the motor. MOST differentials are passively cooled, so it would require yet another cooling system for the electric motor.

Using the all-in-one solution simplifies the use of an EV. You choose the system you want (no EV, Mild Hybrid, Plug in hybrid), and RWD or AWD and that spits out the transmission you install in that particular vehicle. Now you only need to integrate your drive/engine management system with your transmission, which is something all vehicle manufacturers do, and that's it. Your engine, their transmission, done. While there are a few other choices that need to be made, these are the big ones.

TLDR, the engine+Transmission/motor package reduces complexity vs three separate modules of motor+engine+transmission.

Just check his comments on other posts and you will understand. He is a troll or always drunk.

 

[Zig]

Just check his comments on other posts and you will understand. He is a troll or always drunk.

Harsh, considering an electric motor always spins faster than the engine.

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