Went to test drive a GT 6spd.... Is low end torque improved in the S650?

[Rocket Man]

agreed

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[Karguy]

I actually did some math and I think the 3.73 is there to correct wheel size...

The baseline is the regular GT, 3.55, with 255 tires. That's the "long gear" mustang.
Followed by GT + PP with 2.54% shorter final corrected by wheel size.... I don't think it's noticeable. Any 1/4 mile improvement should be because of better grip caused by the 275's and maybe the torsen.

Then Dark Horse w/275 only 3% shorter. 0.4% apart from GT+PP.

Last the most expensive DH with 315's 7.24% shorter. (Caused by wheel + tire).

<a href="https://ibb.co/kQfGhHQ">

I calculated this using 1st gear as a baseline. Since MT and TR have different ratios, this might affect but its 0.1% ATM when comparted to 1:1 ratios.

Wheel Diameters:

275/40/19	702.6​	mm
255/40/19	686.6​	mm
315/30/19	671.6​	mm

Thanks for posting this…116 mph in 3rd gear in connection with the low torque of the smallish displacement is the reason the Coyote feels weak for a V8 but still stronger than a Vodoo…Bring the 5.8

 

[CamustangSS650]

Mustang GT+PP back to back with Camaro SS.

Camaro SS - TR6060 - 3.73 - 275/35r20

Mustang GT+PP

The mustang has shorter ratios but makes comparable max speed throught the gears because it can rev higher.

In comparison, the camaro has longer gearing because of the TR6060.
Look at the final drive column.

The SS has 455 torque
The GT has 415 Torque
Diff 40 lbs-ft or 8.7% less in the GT.

Comparing 2nd gears
GT Final torque @ wheel: 7.85 * 415 = 3257 (7.8% more torque at the wheel)
SS Final torque @ wheel: 6.64 * 455 = 3021.

(wheels are same diameter BTW, so no difference there)

IMO the MT82 makes up for the lack of torque in the first 3 gears, and the higher reving 5.0 turning faster compensates for the lack of speed in every gear.
This changes in 4th gear since they're 1:1, but at that point what matters is power, nobody does a roll from 40 in 4th gear

To be honest PP shouldn't matter that much from a "fun driving" standpoint. The feeling when rowing gears should be pretty much the same.

And for those who never drove a camaro, The manual does feel sluggish, the A10 really wakes up the car.

 

[Upacurb]

Thanks for posting this…116 mph in 3rd gear in connection with the low torque of the smallish displacement is the reason the Coyote feels weak for a V8 but still stronger than a Vodoo…Bring the 5.8

LOL as soon as I saw this thread title I knew you would respond

 

[robvas]

Mustang GT+PP back to back with Camaro SS.

Camaro SS - TR6060 - 3.73 - 275/35r20

Mustang GT+PP

The mustang has shorter ratios but makes comparable max speed throught the gears because it can rev higher.

In comparison, the camaro has longer gearing because of the TR6060.
Look at the final drive column.

The SS has 455 torque
The GT has 415 Torque
Diff 40 lbs-ft or 8.7% less in the GT.

Comparing 2nd gears
GT Final torque @ wheel: 7.85 * 415 = 3257 (7.8% more torque at the wheel)
SS Final torque @ wheel: 6.64 * 455 = 3021.

(wheels are same diameter BTW, so no difference there)

IMO the MT82 makes up for the lack of torque in the first 3 gears, and the higher reving 5.0 turning faster compensates for the lack of speed in every gear.
This changes in 4th gear since they're 1:1, but at that point what matters is power, nobody does a roll from 40 in 4th gear

To be honest PP shouldn't matter that much from a "fun driving" standpoint. The feeling when rowing gears should be pretty much the same.

And for those who never drove a camaro, The manual does feel sluggish, the A10 really wakes up the car.

Aren't the manual Camaros closer in speed to then A10's compared to the big difference between the M6 and A10 Gen 3 Mustangs?

 

[CamustangSS650]

Thanks for posting this…116 mph in 3rd gear in connection with the low torque of the smallish displacement is the reason the Coyote feels weak for a V8 but still stronger than a Vodoo…Bring the 5.8

looking at my last post:

Comparing 3rd gears
GT Final torque @ wheel: 5.30* 415 = 2199
SS Final torque @ wheel: 4.85 * 455 = 2206.

0.3% difference. Should feel the same from max tq to redline, car weight and aero can make the difference here.)

 

[Zengineer]

LOL as soon as I saw this thread title I knew you would respond

And exactly what his response would be.

 

[CamustangSS650]

Aren't the manual Camaros closer in speed to then A10's compared to the big difference between the M6 and A10 Gen 3 Mustangs?

I haven't done the A10 for the mustang yet, but here's the Camaro A10/M6 comparison.

The 2nd column compares the auto with manual gears. There are some in betweens that make the difference when it comes to acceleration.

The problem with the A10 is that 1st gear is already too short. IMO this is on purpose to shift to 2nd and lock the converter ASAP to reduce the drivetrain losses. If you pick a shorter Gear, it needs to turn 2nd/3rd/4th/5th in "in between" gears. The approximate drop/ratio between those gears is 21%. If you shorten the differential around that % you're just swapping gears, 3rd is the new 2nd and so on... and 1st is useless. So you turn a 10 speed into a 9 speed with a crawl gear.
It's very hard to improve this setup.

The TR6060 has the gears closer than the MT82, that's good as long as the final ratio isn't too long.

 

[robvas]

I'm just talking about 1/4 mile times and trap speeds

 

[Karguy]

looking at my last post:

Comparing 3rd gears
GT Final torque @ wheel: 5.30* 415 = 2199
SS Final torque @ wheel: 4.85 * 455 = 2206.

0.3% difference. Should feel the same from max tq to redline, car weight and aero can make the difference here.)

All theory is grey as in real life the Coyote needs at least 4000 rpm to get some meaningful acceleration while the LT1 get you the same shove around 2000 rpm…More Torque due to bigger displacement ! Nowhere between 1000 and 6000 rpm will be the Coyote as powerful as the LT1 or even less so the Hemi 392 except for keeping it spin at 6500 rpm…This of course you cant do unless you where on a track or had a CVT…LOL And yes in a automatic with 10 gears you can keep it closer to the rpm band where it makes the best power , between top torque and top power than in a 6 speed manual with bigger rpm differences between the gears but a manual will always be more fun despite being a little slower on acceleration…Unless you live in San Francisco or go drag racing go with the manual

 

[CamustangSS650]

All theory is grey as in real life the Coyote needs at least 4000 rpm to get some meaningful acceleration while the LT1 get you the same shove around 2000 rpm…More Torque due to bigger displacement ! Nowhere between 1000 and 6000 rpm will be the Coyote as powerful as the LT1 or even less so the Hemi 392 except for keeping it spin at 6500 rpm…This of course you cant do unless you where on a track or had a CVT…LOL And yes in a automatic with 10 gears you can keep it closer to the rpm band where it makes the best power , between top torque and top power than in a 6 speed manual with bigger rpm differences between the gears but a manual will always be more fun despite being a little slower on acceleration…Unless you live in San Francisco or go drag racing go with the manual

Agree with the LT1. The hemi is powerful and sounds amazing, but the chassis where it sits its too heavy.

To compete Ford needs to drop the v6 ecoboost in the mustang. That would fix the torque problem.
It could go head to head with the upcoming Dodge 6 inline twin turbo,

I'd still get the V8 though cause I like to complain about stuff.

 

[Karguy]

Agree with the LT1. The hemi is powerful and sounds amazing, but the chassis where it sits its too heavy.

To compete Ford needs to drop the v6 ecoboost in the mustang. That would fix the torque problem.
It could go head to head with the upcoming Dodge 6 inline twin turbo,

I'd still get the V8 though cause I like to complain about stuff.

I think with a Ecoboost V6 no matter how much faster the Mustang would be dead because Mustang is V8 or nothing ! I think Stellantis will learn this painful lesson soon with their all new Charger no matter how fast the biturbo inline 6 / AWD combo might be...No V8 and no manual will turn probably 75% of prospective customer off...Still better than the electric Chargers which turn 90% off the prospective customers off...Fake V8 sound or not...LOL

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